La Cocina Oaxaquena Reviews

4.3

320 of 3,215 Restaurants in Seattle


Reviews

Excellent Authentic Mexican Cuisine

By Cynthia L |

Located in a great neighborhood, close to shopping and theaters. This was a wonderful experience starting with the easy drive into 'town' from the South- the Olive Way exit (166) off of I-5 leads directly to Melrose, turn Right and continue to Pine then turn Right and park. There is a pay parking lot directly next to the restaurant. As we were going to a show at the Paramount Theater, we wanted to enjoy a leisurely dinner, then walk down the hill to the show. Our server was a very friendly professional young lady: She was efficient and attentive without being intrusive. We had a light appetizer - chips and guacamole (made fresh and is really good) and the Salsa Bar offers a variety of flavors. My husband ordered the Chile Relleno, which looked like a work of art and he confirmed that it was delicious. I broke with tradition and ordered the Filete de Pescado - Cod, lightly breaded and served with tortillas and fresh Avocado slices. Absolutely amazing, subtle spices complimented the fish without overpowering it. Probably the best Cod I've ever had. Everything is reasonably priced and the chef's know their business. This is our 'go to' place when we want to visit Seattle.

great

By bl1416 |

great late night dining. carne aside tacos are fantastic. late night deals were excellent. good service and friendly people.

Solid Mexican option

By Prev-ran |

They are known for their mole, and several in our group can attest to its tastiness. If you’re looking for Mexican food in this neighborhood, this is definitely a good choice. The staff were friendly and the prices were reasonable for the area.

Had a cold one here

By joshua b |

Great place to watch the world go by or have a stop before dinner or whatever. The food looked good, but we had other plans, so didn't try it. Reasonable prices for close-in to downtown in a big city.

OAXACA FOR THE WIN

By roach808 |

At a conference and were worried that we would be rushed, but we got in and out with plenty of time. There were some usual favorites and less common Mexican fare options. Salsa bar was delicious, and REAL lemon and limeades.

More Authentic than I have in some places in Mexico!

By Laura B |

My daughter invited us to this restaurant for her birthday dinner. We had 16 people. When we walked up we were warmly greeted. They had the table ready for us. It was a warm evening and we sat on the patio. They started us out with tall ice waters and warm chips in charming little colorful Mexican bowls. They have a salsa bar so on of our table guest went in and brought us back an assortment of yummy homemade salsas. We ordered guacamole it was very good. We were given food and drink menus. The first thing I notice on both was the price. The prices were very inexpensive. Most of us ordered Margaritas. They came in tall pint size glasses and they were 7 dollars. My son in law got a rum and coke it was 5 dollars. When the food came it was amazing and everyone said so. I had the Mole with pork it was exceptional. Others around the table had Carne Asada, Ceviche, Pescado and all of it was excellent. The service was great! I can't wait to go back.

A Poor Representation of a Culinary Destination

By the_melv |

One of our biggest disappointments in all of Seattle. The city of Oaxaca (after which this place is named) is located in Southern Mexico. Due to its varied topography and diverse vegetation it is a center for foodies from around the world to sample some truly unique Mexican cuisine. Some dishes may be common to Mexico yet done with unique flavors and ingredients. Not so for this restaurant. Most everything we have eaten here is flavorless. Yes, folks, a Mexican restaurant lacking flavor! In much (maybe all) of Mexico, corn is a staple ingredient. In various forms served here it becomes inedible. Corn tortillas shaping rather ordinary and dull tacos are unable to stand up to their fillings and fall apart. Good luck trying to eat the crumbled mess left on the plate. What about those tamales? This dish is a mess. It overlaps the small plate. Attempting to get at the tamale more ends up on the table than in your stomach Perhaps that is best. The corn is so undercooked it resembles paste. We can never remember being served uncooked harina de maiz. There is always a first time. We've tried this place a couple of times now and each is as bad as the other. There is a sauce bar of which I am not a fan. If you are wanting to be a full service restaurant bring me the sauce. For those visiting from out of town this is a nice walk from downtown hotels. Once you have reached this amiable corner continue walking for two more blocks. On the same side of the street you will find a truly authentic and delicious little Mexican restaurant.

Nice Oaxacan-style Mexican restaurant in Capitol Hill

By map-reader_man |

We found this restaurant walking around Capitol Hill. It is about a 10 min. walk east of the Grand Hyatt on Pine St. There were many students dining here from the nearby community college. The extensive menu offers reasonably priced dinners. http://lacocinaoaxaquena.com/menu/ While the choices include typical Mexican fare, the specialty dishes are distinctly Oaxacan (Mexico's highlands region). We enjoyed the Carne Asada Plato and Tacos de Asada. The servers were friendly and attentive. Outdoor seating is available but Pine St. gets very noisy at rush hour.

Like mama used to make

By tmessana |

This was a great find. Seattle resturants are stuffy! not here! Great food great service. .ate it all. Guacamole is great salsa good. Get the habenero informed Margherita yum!

Large restaurant

By rpisces |

The restaurant is large and modern. They have a second level that has a food truck, I wasn't able to see it because they are only open specific hours and days. I found the food to be average, when considering the price point. Many Mexican restaurants in the neighborhood which are much better with better prices.

Mmmmmmmmmmmole!!!!

By XManNL |

I always have a few key dishes I try at restaurants to determine if I "like" them or not. For a mexican restaurant, it's their mole. And the mole here was absolutely delicious! The chicken was tender and most and the mole was yummy! A bit sweet, which I liked. Not spicy hot. Just excellent overall. Served w/ a white rice as well, and all very delicious! My friend had a chili relleno, and raved about it as well. Perhaps it was the VERY nice margharitas as well before the food came, but we both very much enjoyed our dinners! DEF will be back. The ONLY downside, and why I gave it a "very" good, was the ambiance. Nothing special about it. Nothing bad. It was just ordinary. And I'd much prefer great food and ordinary surroundings than the other way around!

Great authentic Mexican

By Mrmx131 |

Good service, good prices, and delicious food. The menu is great with many authentic selections. Several beers on tap and there is a salsa bar

Early dinner

By Undrwtr |

We stopped in for dinner. We started with guac and house made chips along with three salsas from the salsa bar. I had sangria and cheese enchiladas...which were even better when I poured salsa verde on top. Hubby had a beer and pork mole. We both agreed that we would need to come back to this restaurant many times. The service was perfect. The food was great and served quickly. I cannot wait to try the chile relleno.

A nicer Mexican restaurant in Belltown area.

By Kelly C |

Family meal on our last night after a 10 day Seattle/Alaska visit. It was a nice walk from our hotel. Staff and service was great. A step-up from your typical Mexican restaurant. The ceviche was excellent! All four of us (including our two teenage daughters) gobbled it up quickly! The inside of the restaurant was hotter than heck for some reason, but we lucky were able to get an outdoor table with only a 10 minute wait.

Mexico!

By Italidog |

Very typical REAL Mexican food: hand-made, excellent tortillas, great fresh salsas (salsa bar), and terrific Margaritas. Every menu item is authentic and delicious. Order a few items and share. Outstanding mole. Well-priced. A little under-staffed but worth any wait you might experience. Olé,

It tastes like what it looks like...

By _glbetrkkr_ |

What I really like about La Cocina is the food is prepared so simply which translates to delicious food. There's no second-guessing of what the food is, or leaving hungry after dropping so much money. I can still remember the taste/smell of the black beans or the mole tamale (which I highly recommend). Unlike traditional tamales, the banana leaf adds a certain (almost undefinable) sweetness. It really complements the savoriness of the mole and pork. Service is great and our server was attentive without being overbearing. The rest of the staff seemed laid back, but took care of their customers. Moreover, we didn't spend a ton of money, but did order a good number of items. Suffice to say, we didn't eat food the rest of the day. I definitely recommend this tiny gem if you're looking for great Mexican food.

5 Star Food and Service

By MarisolParasol |

Went in last minute and it was happy hour. $4 coronas!!! But anyway...service was super friendly and perdonable. Guacamole is delicious and so are their tacos dorados aka fried tacos. Cute little unassuming restaurant just steps away from downtown can easily be ignored, but do yourself a favor and try it.

So good, perfect portions!

By JenAnnB |

Visited on a perfect evening in Seattle. This place is on a very vibrant urban/residential corner, with lots of action to watch, and an outdoor seating area as well. I really enjoyed the enchiladas, with the steak on the side. Great dish, well seasoned, and perfectly sized. This place has a lot of charm - highly recommended.

Good Mexican food

By kimc0486 |

Good Mexican food on the hill. It is a little pricey for what you get, but if you come during Happy Hour, the prices are ok.

PLEASE TRY THIS PLACE!!! You will thank me.

By ThrutheeyesofV |

I love Mexican food and this has to be the absolute best mole dish ever...it is their house specialty and it was amazing. It comes with this white rice (I don't know what they put in it but it was great - garlic and something kinda sweet) but the combination of the flavors with the mole was out of this world. Great guacamole, chips and the salsa was top notch! Super reasonably priced...make a reservation if you are planning to go, it gets packed.

Good late night food and drink

By Rich D |

We stopped in for some late night imbibing. Found the late night happy hour menu very good. No complaints and recommend the place completely

Taco. And more tacos...excellent

By LindaBeachLife |

The nachos with chicken was a meal along...four of us split this and got the pork soft shell tacos too....excellent....easy location to,activities downtown.

Bad experience.

By Pablo R |

Since the place was open, my Wife and I we had been a loyal customers to that place for so many years, good value, good food, nice people works there, nice service always friendly, until last night, the server was unbelievable rude and he makes a mistake I our order, he almost start fighting with me. We founded the server is the owner of the place. Too bad we never going to go back and patronage his businesses and we going to share are bad experience with friends and family. Pr.

AMAZING!!!

By lissaWanderlust |

The best Mexican I’ve ever had. Great salsa bar, margaritas and excellent customer service. They have a good happy hour with patio seating

Excellent Mexican food

By Mobile621543 |

The food was great. The service was great. I'd never been to a restaurant from this region of Mexico and I'm certainly going to repeat. Highly recommended!

favorite Mexican restaurant in area

By kate554433 |

There are a lot of Mexican restaurants along Pine, but this one always comes out on top. The food is always so fresh, unlike other restaurants along this street. I can't speak with regards to authenticity, but it does seem less Americanized than the other Mexican restaurants in the area. The menu has so many great options. We always leave here happy!

Good basic kind-of authentic oaxacan food

By ricknsara |

Good value. Dinners in the 10-12 range. Start off with fresh, hot tortilla chips and good basic guacamole. Food is simple and, while not brilliant, still feels like a good solid buy and is not your typical american Mexican meal. No heaping plate of beans and rice with overflowing yellow cheese and enchilada sauce. The mole we had was fair enough, a good basic mole. Service is attentive and quick. Love the hot tortilla chips. Would go again for a basic, comfort food oaxacan meal.

Gave away our reservation then lied to us.

By BuddingWisdom |

We were a group of six with a reservation for 6:15pm, and theatre tickets afterwards. Traffic was heavy getting to the restaurant so we called to see about arriving a few minutes late. Person on the phone said no, they couldn't push it later than 6:20pm, so we said okay, we will be there for 6:20pm. One of the people in our party was arriving separate from us and he was able to make it to the restaurant for 6:18pm and claim our reservation. When he arrived there was no one at the hostess station. He waited and when the man returned he informed our party member that there was no table for us. The rest of us arrived at 6:25 and the man said our party was late so he gave away our table. We insisted that one of our party members was there on time and he repeatedly denied that that was the case (how could he know, as he was off seating the people he had given our table to). While we were very upset at the poor customer service, the giving away of our table and being lied to, in the end we were quite grateful for the incident as we had some of the best food I have ever eaten at Terra Plata just up the street. We will not ever return to La Cocina nor will we ever recommend it.

One of the Best Mexican Plates Ever!

By Irrashimasse |

This moderately expensive little corner restaurant turned out to be one of our favorite meals in Seattle. In fact we liked it so much we made it back for the final dinner of our 6 day visit. Fresh ingredients and presentation is just beautiful. One of the best mole sauces I've ever tasted anywhere on the planet. Kids loved it as did the adults. Great service and freshly cooked tortilla chips as you order! Highly recommended for a casual dinner if you're in the lower Capitol Hill area.

Dont walk by walk in

By Ajm |

I lived in Seattle and went often. Whenever I visit I try to get people to go. I may have had everything on the menu. The kitchen and most of the staff are from Mexico but have tuned there offerings to American tastes. The days they open the doors are great for sitting at the front and people watching.

Al pastor tacos rock

By vdubgrl83 |

We have been here a few times but only had drink. (Which are amazing). Tonight we had dinner and it was great. My husband had the tacos al pastor and said they were some of the best he had. I had the chile rellano it was the first time I ever tried it and I wasn't a huge fan but the staff was amazing. They offered to make me anything else on the menu and were really so apologetic even though it was all me not liking it. I will definitely be back here just because of the amazing service. Thank you!!

Great local find

By Millytravels |

Outside of the touristy area of Seattle, La Cocina Oaxaquena provided us with a delicious authentic Mexican meal! The guacamole with fresh chips was delicious! (An additional refill of chips was needed, and they were provided free of charge.) There is a salsa bar with fresh pico and salsa of varying temperatures! We enjoyed sampling the three offerings. We all enjoyed our different lunch options. They were authentic, plentiful, and palate pleasing. I had the black bean tostadas and enjoyed every bite. There was a nice flavor to everything. My husband swears the chicken he had was one of the best of our trip. The tortillas that came with it were so light, fluffy, and yummy! Our server was very busy the entire time we were there. He appeared to be the only one working the floor, so there were a few lags on service. However, we were not in a hurry and enjoyed the leisurely feel on the patio! We would definitely head back for more Mexican goodness!

Go for the mole....

By Laure R |

The staff was helpful, drinks were kept filled and everything was delivered promptly with no feeling of being rushed. The chicken mole was amazing. Highly recommend the carne asada if you aren't into mole (this mole may make you a convert) No burritos here, just tortillas. Price was low for the amount and quality of the food.

Night Out In Downtown Seattle

By EManriquez |

My husband and I were in Seattle for a little get away and decided we wanted authentic Mexican food. So I decided to Google nearby local restaurants and I found this spot. We decided to walk to it from our hotel Motif. It was a few blocks up but it was a nice evening and it was a great opportunity to get a better look of that area by foot. Anyway when we got there we were immediately greeted and were given a choice of indoor or outdoor seating. There menu was easy to follow, a brief description of each meal was listed. The food was amazing, it is one of the best Mexican restaurants I've been to. They're service and food exceeded my expectations! Totally worth going to. There is also a bar inside. Great food great drinks!

Good authentic Mexican food

By Happygolucky195 |

We were headed to the Italian restaurant across the street but there was an hour wait, so we decided to try this cute Mexican restaurant with outside seating. Everyone in my family of five (including 3 kids aged from 11 to 17) really enjoyed their meal. One standout surprisingly was a cheese enchilada which had an unusual and very delicious taste. Would definitely recommend. No problems with service.

Happy hour again

By Mujahid B |

Wonderful local venue, we visit regularly for happy hour, snacks or a meal. The staff are super friendly which is a family run business. Somewhere to keep going back to

Solid Mexican

By jigregor |

Good spot for fairly authentic Mexican food. Loved the pozole. Drinks were good, very nice house margarita. We got sat way over in the corner - much better seats in the house including roof top seats up stairs which we look forward to enjoying on our next visit.

Surprisingly authentic Mexican in the NW

By mauiwaves |

We had large group of 13 and they were able to seat us on the patio. We were very surprised at the authenticity of the food not to mention the outstanding flavor. The price was very reasonable (I think they should charge more for the quality of the product they provide). If you want tasty and inexpensive Mexican, this is the place in Seattle.

Dependably excellent food

By gpas |

I feel fortunate to live a short walk from this wonderful restaurant. The staff is always friendly and efficient, and the food is perfectly prepared and delicious. The freshly made guacamole, chips and salsa bar along with a Bartender Margarita are a great start. Pollo en Salsa Tomatillo (#18 on the menu) is definitely my favorite dinner choice.

Great Mexican food in Seattle

By jmaysatx |

Perfect spot for a casual meal that brought a touch of home to our table. This place could hold it’s own against our San Antonio favorites. The food was delicious, and the chips were hot, crispy and perfectly salted. Lot’s of tequila options. A bonus for us, it was just a block from the Starbucks Reserve, and we could stock up on our coffee needs afterwards.

Great food .The entire menu is street food.

By Siddy57 |

Tv sports and great food. Make sure ur reservation is proper. Else ull end up in the line fir 2 hours or find urself nxt to the grill

Tamales!

By myklrl |

Get the tamales. They are absolutely fantastic. The service is friendly and the prices are on par for Seattle. The place can get crowded so you may find a wait. It’s well worth it, though.

Great value for good food

By Timothy T |

A neighborhood gem. The Pazole/fresh tortillas and habanero-infused margarita paired wonderfully. Well-priced, good food, good service, easy on/off from I5 makes this a fantastic stop for travelers.

Fantastic!

By Scott S |

The only reason this isn't higher ranked is because it's a locals' kind of place. That last reviewer that wrote all of that about their reservation being given away is ridiculous. The service was great. The food was not your typical Americanized mexican food. I have never seen my wife eat more at one sitting. It's very small and has a great vibe. I don't think it's a place to bring the kids. The chips were amazing!

Good

By Iain G |

Seemed authentic with the clientele so we gave it a go. Tried Tlayuda which we had never had before and enjoyed it. Nice atmosphere.

Always dependably delicious

By gpas |

We are fortunate to live a ten minute walk from this wonderful restaurant. The staff is warm and friendly, the food is perfectly prepared and delicious, and the Bartender Margarita is amazing. Their chips and guacamole are freshly made when ordered.

Good food, excellent service

By Romanshire |

The food was great; the portion size was prefect for lunch. The chips were hot and fresh; the salsa bar was small but excellent. The service was spot on.

Great Mexican Place

By Jens L |

I loved the salsas. They're having a small salsa bar, where you can get the salsas for your table (including pico de gallo). I had the tortilla chips, all salsas and as main dish mole. This was one of the best Mexican restaurants I have been to outside of Mexico. Amazing!

Solid Mexician Food and Huge Value

By 422gostan |

Service was friendly from the Bar to the Restaurant and efficient. The food was good solid Mexican. Not a huge menu, but that is a sign that the items they serve are consistently good. The value of getting a great meal in a great location is huge. The house margarita was perfect... not too sweet and strong enough to taste the tequila.

excellent Oaxaquenan food, good service

By akrook |

Run by some of the people who used to work at La Carta de Oaxaca in Ballard, this place has many of the same good features: excellent foods, tasty small plates if you don't want a ton, and very, very good drinks. Some nice touches are reprinting all the vegetarian options on the menu together, so nobody has to hunt, and some new appetizers (try Tostadas de Chileajo, potato with chile on a tostada; if you ask them to leave off the queso this even works for a vegan). There's a cocktail menu for people who don't want to peruse the tequila list, with good combinations. Reasonably priced, though the nearby parking lot is a little pricey. Outdoor seating with heaters and a nice city view. Only downside is the ambient noise level at this popular spot, which can get on the nerves.

Terrible service

By Ivey50 |

This restaurant was recommended by a local, so I had high hopes, but we waited more than 30 minutes for mediocre food. The back door was open so there was a fly issue. Service was poor, and being near the kitchen, it was evident the place was not clean. With so many options in the area, I will not be returning.

Wonderful and affordable neighborhood gem

By gpas |

La Cocina Oaxaquena is our new favorite neighborhood restaurant. The food is authentic and perfectly prepared. They make their chips when they are ordered and serve them with an amazing guacamole. A salsa bar is also available. If you are a fan of margaritas, don't miss the Bartender's Margarita. Outdoor seating is available when the weather permits. The prices are affordable. We eat here two or three times each month and have never been disappointed with our meals.

Quesadilla Heaven!

By MACAFRI |

Genuine and delicious! these tortillas are made in house. Portions are big sized and service is exceptional. A must if you are nearby and are a fan of real Mexican food. Also love the salsa bar. <3

Ubereats review - where's the flavor?

By BITAZUM |

Tried several of the tacos including the fish tacos and the dorado. Great flour tacos and everything looks zesty so its rather disappointing to dig in and find it bland and lacking any flavor. Maybe the food is toned down for the cap hill crowd but I don't think I'll be giving this place another try.

Drink was spiked here yesterday

By Chris W |

Yesterday I had a few drinks here and they were spiked. I was heavily drugged in an attempted robbery. It was so quiet in there I’m sure the people running the restaurant must know this was happening. This restaurant is not safe for visitors.

Amazing (amazing!) tacos!

By aj192018 |

I have found that when Mexican restaurants offer guacamole for a reasonable price, they are usually pretty great, and this was no exception. We came during happy hour (by accident) and were able to order chips and guacamole for a cheap price, and that also came with access to the salsa bar (which is open not during happy hour as well, just a tad more expensive--but still cheap). My family and I all ordered different things, and we all loved it. I ordered Tacos al Pastor and can say confidently, that they were the 3rd best I have ever had. The first being in Mexico city and the second being an amazing spot near Washington DC. The fact that this place makes my list, if I may say so, is a huge deal. I am gluten free and they make delicious homemade rice tortillas for the tacos. The chips (that come with the guacamole and salsa) are also corn and homemade, they are still warm when they get to the table. Our family did order dessert, flan, which was delicious and churros (pictures attached, not gluten free but great reviews from my family). Everything we had we absolutely loved. I did come back here about 2 weeks later and was slightly less impressed, particularly with my tacos, they had added a verde sauce which I wouldn't recommend if you get the al pastor. It might matter who is working in the back on the day you go but I would highly recommend this place regardless!

Fabulous Meal

By TracyEV |

Recommended by our hotel when I asked for something away from the Playoff craziness going on downtown. Fabulous Mexican food and attentive servers, great salsa bar! Went back twice in 3 days!

Yum!

By Hillary S |

House made mole, generous portions, piping hot chips, fresh guac, good service and patio tables! Pretty much everything we look for in a mexican place. A cross between a taqueria and a traditional restaurant. Everything we had from the rice and beans to the meats were fresh and house made. Highly recommend

Great flavors

By bobby C |

Found this place walking from our hotel to a burger joint. Excellent service, very flavorful food, and fast too. Salsa was just ok or might have given it 5 stars. Tortilla chips are fried when ordered-very good. Would definitely come back again.

Better than any Mexican food I can get in Tucson, AZ

By Cherill H |

The location of this restaurant on Pine St. in Seattle is perfect since we like the Capitol Hill area. The margaritas were great-- The soft tacos are all made using fresh "homemade" tortillas--just wonderful Tacos de Asada--the beef is perfectly seasoned Tacos de Pescado - the fresh cod is cooked to perfection and the combination with the crema and pico de gallo makes for a tasty meal for sure This dining experience in Seattle has now spoiled us with this great Oaxacan food and we definitely will be returning as soon as we are visiting the area.

Looks like a dive, but the food is remarkably good.

By David Y |

Very casual restaurant. Not a place for a romantic date, or a high-powered business dinner. But the food was really good! Very authentic Mexican food, which I don't say often about so called "Mexican" restaurants in the US. Just plain old good Mexican food!

Great happy hour destination

By reeshot |

The menu is quite extensive and yummy for happy hour. Great portion sizes and tasty! The prices are very reasonable too. $4 beers and wine under $5. We had the tacos and quesadillas and they were nice looking and tasting. Salsa bar too, you you can eat as much salsa as you like.

Average but great outdoor seating

By angelsiou1 |

I would definitely not go back for the food. The service was great and cocktail selection was ok. We especially loved the outdoor seating.

Happy place.

By MaryAlida |

I absolutely love this place. We tend to order the same dishes (while working our way through the menu). Favs: Tacos dorados - with beef. Rolled and fried (YES!) and then covered in lettuce. With a red sauce on top. Perfect juxtaposition. Comes with 3 - perfect as an appetizer or a dinner. Carne asada- I do not know how they make the steak so tasty. It is amazingly consistent. Thin - seasoned a some searing - that is so tender that you can tear it apart with your hands. Black beans rice - tortillas - layer on some serious salsa. And my personal favorite- mole with pork. I could keep going....but I brought home dinner and looking forward to enjoying these favorites at home. Until next week.... Oh - and we love bringing out of town guests here - and great before a show as the service is fast.

Top notch authentic Mexican Food

By Steve K |

6 people, 6 different selections, all happy. The food is delicious, nicely presented, well portioned, and reasonably priced. There is indoor and outdoor seating. Our food wait time was minimal and at no time did I feel rushed. Their guacamole was very good.

Great food

By Belterish |

I know good Mexican food and this one is good. Quality and flavor of the carne asada was the best. Not supper traditional but authentic for sure.

Authentic

By Tom L |

Wonderful ambience, beautiful location. Best salsa bar I’ve been to...better than Texas! ;) Authentic tastes all around! Will visit every time we’re in town! And kind staff, if that matters to you..